Designers

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kennetharry
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Designers

Postby kennetharry » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:42 am

Why is there not a section of developers, where the players can get in touch with the designer of a particular course, that they have found something wrong, instead of putting it somewhere and hope the designer will find it.

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JohnMeyer
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Re: Designers

Postby JohnMeyer » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:06 am

There is if you are a BETA course tester, thats exactly how it works. Surely it would better if you did it that way, ie found the problems before the course was released, as opposed to waiting until it is, then reporting problems.

You seem to be very active in terms of playing the game and finding issues, surely it would be better for you to do that in the BETA phase of a courses release?
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spy88
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Re: Designers

Postby spy88 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:59 am

I play JNPG almost daily with Kenny and up to 6 others. We routinely play each new course as it comes out and vary the conditions. One we rarely alter is "difficult pin positions". On occasion, we find issues with the course relative to what we consider fair and/or in line with USGA/R&A rules, especially said pin placements. I posted about this is the forums @ PP.
http://www.perfectparallel.com/topic/90 ... designers/

One of the commentators suggested I notify slice so he can verify said issue and either have it fixed or leave as is. But in yesterdays round, we found a rather unique flub. At The Hills #16 par 3, stream to the right of green, 2 of us hit into the water. Both times, the current took the balls down a ways, then spit the balls out to give us a no penalty drop...but the drops were in the water. We hit from the given drop but felt both should have been lost balls. Needs fixing.

I'll be keeping track of similar circumstances/issues/problems within the games we play from now on and would like to have a proper place to post them for review. If the one I'm in now is ok, I'll continue using it. If not, please advise where you would like my comments to be posted.
Thank you to all of you guys at OGT for the hard work everyone puts in to make sim golf what it is.

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Zmax
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Re: Designers

Postby Zmax » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:21 am

spy88 wrote:I play JNPG almost daily with Kenny and up to 6 others. We routinely play each new course as it comes out and vary the conditions. One we rarely alter is "difficult pin positions". On occasion, we find issues with the course relative to what we consider fair and/or in line with USGA/R&A rules, especially said pin placements. I posted about this is the forums @ PP.
http://www.perfectparallel.com/topic/90 ... designers/

One of the commentators suggested I notify slice so he can verify said issue and either have it fixed or leave as is. But in yesterdays round, we found a rather unique flub. At The Hills #16 par 3, stream to the right of green, 2 of us hit into the water. Both times, the current took the balls down a ways, then spit the balls out to give us a no penalty drop...but the drops were in the water. We hit from the given drop but felt both should have been lost balls. Needs fixing.

I'll be keeping track of similar circumstances/issues/problems within the games we play from now on and would like to have a proper place to post them for review. If the one I'm in now is ok, I'll continue using it. If not, please advise where you would like my comments to be posted.
Thank you to all of you guys at OGT for the hard work everyone puts in to make sim golf what it is.


The Hills was not tested on OGT, so it was not released on OGT course downloads. We have no contact with the designer of that course. I would suggest you post in PP's forum about issues with this course or other courses that were not released by OGT. We encourage all designers to post their beta courses on OGT testers section, but it's ultimately up to the designers.

For courses that were released by OGT, you can post in OGT's courses forum at the link below or in the Designer's testing section.
http://onlinegolftour.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=87

Perhaps you can join OGT's course testing group and help test beta courses? Let me know.
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sliceapotomu
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Re: Designers

Postby sliceapotomu » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:21 pm

hey spy I do not have that course. as far as the usga rules in pin placement , THERE Are None.... what you were quoting in the pp post are guide lines and the designers can either follow them or not. I also posted those guide lines here in ogt to hope that designers would follow them.. I would hope that if a designer wanted diabolical pins they would also include other pins that we could use in tourneys.. we always welcome testers here at ogt and you don't even have to be a paid tourney site to help out here..
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spy88
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Re: Designers

Postby spy88 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:26 pm

Thanks for the feedback slice...appreciate it. OK. From now on, I'll only speak to courses OGT handles (I REALLY should have seen that!).

If designers want to put pins anywhere they want without regard to sanity, they're free to do so but they'll lose my play. Simply how I feel about the sim courses, not that they'll care. And as for pin placement, this line from Rule 16 is a USGA requirement and as such, can and should be considered a rule. (jmpov).

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

As for being a tester, I appreciate the offer but I'd have to be free just to report on those courses OGT handles as we play them. I simply have neither the time or inclination to tackle testing on a regular basis. Our rounds in the morning can last for 3-5 hours depending on how many are up and online. For me, that's @ 5 am. Any further time invested is simply too much for my old brain...not to mention physical limitations. If this is agreeable, I'll definitely report to you as I find issues for you to handle as you see fit.

Thanks again to you, your group and site for the extra effort to make sim golf as enjoyable as possible. I don't think you hear that often enough for the time all of you invest.

David

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spy88
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Re: Designers

Postby spy88 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:37 pm

And to Vance.

Thank you also for the offer to beta test. Please see my response to this in my comments to slice.

P.S. I still remember the early days when you, or David and I, would play. 2½ years later, we've all still got the bug!

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Armand
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Re: Designers

Postby Armand » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:14 pm

I have the greatest respect for designers, not only those who recreate real courses, but especially those that create their own fictional designs. I've tried a little bit in the design programs, but I just don't seem to have what it takes to get a course to completion. My hopes using CF to create a course haven't completely been dashed yet (!).

Overall, I think the reason there are "unfair" pins in golf games is because designers (subconsciously) know that players will use whatever aids are available to shoot as low of a score as possible. Due to the aids, the better players become very adept at clicking power/snap points on a meter, moving the mouse to swing, or flicking a stick to generate a swing. This proficiency makes hitting the ball close to the hole somewhat "easy". To combat that with the hopes of realistic scoring, difficult pins have lost their place, I think. What real golfers would call a difficult pin in real life, doesn't really exist in the golf gaming world.

Therefore, it seems to me that difficult pins are often defined by the difficulty in putting, rather than the difficulty of the approach - which I think is the "correct" way to refer to difficult pins. In other golf games, designers crank up the green firmness and speed so they play like concrete, making all pins difficult. (The same goes for fairways, where they can be like ribbons at times.)

I don't really see much way around this, at least until everyone playing the game uses real clubs and a simulator. Placement of pins in "unfair" locations may also change if everyone were to play without any aids at the most difficult level. But, neither of those are going to occur, so designers may continue to place pins in "unfair" locations - especially if they created fictional designs. (I believe that is why most people prefer real course recreations, but that is a different topic!).

I have to say that PG is the golf game that seems to be least affected by unfair pin placements and tricks to artificially make the pins more difficult. It still happens, but given the relative difficulty of the game (even with using the aids), the course designers must realize that we players deserve better pin placements.

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spy88
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Re: Designers

Postby spy88 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:36 pm

Armand,

I appreciate your input to this topic however I must take issue with your statement
"Therefore, it seems to me that difficult pins are often defined by the difficulty in putting, rather than the difficulty of the approach - which I think is the "correct" way to refer to difficult pins. In other golf games, designers crank up the green firmness and speed so they play like concrete, making all pins difficult."

As I've stated above, my past with irl golf can translate to sim courses. But more than that, JNPG has the options for Pins: either Easy, Medium, Hard. There is also a option for Green Quality: either Perfect, Bumpy, Realistic. They are completely separate and different choices that do not share effects. If they did, there would be no need for one or the other option.

Difficult pins is meant as protected for approach shots, ie close to first cut, bunker fronted, tree protected, all of these or more. Once the ball is on the green, then the Green Quality option and stimp setting takes over. Add in the option for Hard Greens setting and the difficulty increases considerably.

As for designers trying to protect low(er) scores may be some courses and is a separate matter but it should not be their intent to do so. If a player has the skill regardless of swing method to consistently hit their power and direction of flight, it is because they have put in the practice and have the skill(s) to do so. There should never be reins placed on ALL players simply to limit the scoring lows of "experts".

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MRose
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Re: Designers

Postby MRose » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:35 pm

My general guideline for placing pins is that a "difficult" pin is one that challenges the approach shot more than a putt. So yes, proximity to a hazard, a slope, or the edge of the green are the dominant criteria at work. But I usually have two or three per green.... if I find I need to find another difficult placement on a green and I've already placed two pins near hazards, then I might be inclined in that case to put one on a slope.

Likewise I almost always place easy pins in the center of greens or near the front if the approach is wide open and allows for a run up, and in the flattest portions of said greens.
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Armand
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Re: Designers

Postby Armand » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:10 pm

spy88,

Re-reading the sentence you quoted, I see that it's poorly worded! It may have caused you to misinterpret what I meant. I completely agree with your response. A difficult pin is defined by the approach shot, not by the green slopes, green speeds, or difficulty of putting at the hole location.

I should not have brought other/older golf games into the discussion about PG and difficult pin locations, but I was trying to say that because those adept at using the input methods (whether through practice or natural ability) resulted in there being no truly difficult pins (approach shots). This lead to some designers in those other games (TGC) tricking up their courses. I haven't seen that in PG, thankfully.


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